Proposal to drop some $$$ on a propane tank heater setup ASAP
(Nov 17, 2007, will says) Scott suggested we should try to get some kind of heating setup ready for the kids bike workshops. I think that's a very good idea; furthermore, I think gettting something going pretty much as soon as we possibly can would be really awsome. It was very cold on Thursday night!
On this page I'm going to lay out the case for what I think we should do, and then ask you (council members) to show some virtual thumbs.
What I want to do (as soon as it gets approved: ideally before Thanksgiving, less ideally the week after):
- Purchase one propane tank, two stainless steel hose clamps, and a lighter from Home Depot (more details in the table below)
- Purchase a dolly (aka welding tank delivery hand truck) and an infrared radiant heater from Grainger
- Haul the loot back to the shop (either in my dinosaur burning chariot or by bike trailer caravan if that can be arranged quickly)
- Dig out a chain that I cut off a donated bike last week (or use the one that may come with the dolly)
- Put the tank on the dolly
- Chain the tank to the dolly (chain goes around the top of the tank, hose clamps fasten the chain to the rails of the dolly. The dolly I want should come with a chain and hooks welded to the frame, but the hooks will be too high for a propane tank)
- Put the heater on top of the tank
- Roll the heating rig to a suitable location
- Fire it up and be warm!
Why I want to try heating the shop in this particular way:
- We've discussed a small propane radiant heater on the list and people seem generally to like the idea
- We have three heaters already: a small convective kerosene heater, a small kerosene torpedo heater, and a huge overhead natural gas & electric radiant heater. As best I can tell, the two small heaters are terribly inefficient for a large warehouse, and the word is they didn't work well unless you were right next to them. Most likely, installing the big heater would be an expensive and complicated pain in the ass. The real problem would be the need for tapping into CJ's gas line and the resulting difficulty of settling up the gas bill with CJ.
- Handling propane tanks should be cleaner than kerosene, and the radiant heater will hopefully be efficient enough that one tank will last a week rather than just a shift.
- As Morgan pointed out, knocking the propane tank over could be very dangerous. The two major things that might happen are: a) breaking the valve off and turning the tank into a rocket, and b) releasing a cloud of propane likely resulting in a humongous fireball, burned people, and a torched warehouse.
- I think the main dangers of damaging the tank would be from dropping a bike on it (from the top row of hooks), knocking it over with a ladder, somebody bumping into it, or dropping the tank while moving it around the shop. In all of those cases, having the tank and heater securely attached to a dolly should help out a lot. Basically we would just need to enforce a "don't do risky stuff near the heater...wait for the staff to move it" policy. The dolly should make that safe and easy.
- For securing the tank to the dolly, I want to use a chain rather than a bungee because there's no danger of the chain catching on fire or breaking from being near the heater.
- According to the fire department, Pittsburgh can't regulate propane any more. The state can, but most of their stuff is apparently about places that store a lot of propane or distribute it. There may be some relevant national fire code stuff, but I think that is mostly along the lines of no propane tanks inside of residential buildings or poorly ventilated spaces. CJ is drafty as hell and non-residential, so we should be fine (for example, note the propane tank on CJ's forklift).
- I think we should keep the minimum amount of propane we can get by with in the shop. If something were to happen and we torched off one tank, that would be very bad, two would be worse, etc. I'll sign up to get one propane tank a week for the time being.
- We could ask CJ for approval on this, but it's cold and they aren't very responsive! I say let's just do it safe and smart; after that, I suppose it might be good to let them know what we did.
More information on what I want to buy:
| Qty |
Description |
Links |
Price |
| 2 |
Hose clamps |
??? |
$2 ea (guessing) |
| 1 |
Grill lighter |
??? |
$7 (guessing) |
| 1 |
New propane tank with propane |
http://www.homedepot.com/ ... |
~ $50 |
| 1 |
Dolly: ideally I want a heavy duty (therefore hard to knock over) hand truck designed for delivering welding tanks (shaped to accommodate round tanks and comes with a chain, but the mounts for the chain will be too high for a propane tank, hence the need for hose clamps). If the dolly I want isn't in stock, a regular hand truck would do.
|
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/4ZJ12 |
$129.60 for the welding one, probably half that for a basic normal one |
| 1 |
Re-Verber-Ray P32-T infrared radiant propane heater |
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/2E393
http://www.reverberray.com/pdf/brochures/pt_brochure.pdf
|
$159.25 |
| |
Total cost including 7% tax (this might be off due to propane price fluctuations, which dolly is in stock, etc) |
|
$374.34 |
The proposal:
Will can spend up to $400.00 to buy the things described in the table above, or if those exact items aren't available, to buy something similar that will work instead. Will and Shaun will handle the check and reimbursment details for paying Grainger and Home Depot. Somebody (not necessarily Will) can spend up to $30 each week (it should be more like $20 though) from now until it warms up to get a propane tank refill. Assuming we get one tank a week from December through April (about 22 weeks) that would be $440 for propane assuming an average price of $20 a tank, or up to $660 for an average of $30 a tank.
Virtual Thumbs:
| Will |
up |
Let's do it! |
| johnny |
up |
totally! (look i responded to something.) |
| Jessica |
up-ish |
I have a few concerns (requirement for regular tank transportation, expense for another potentially temporary solution, uncertainty about how well it will serve to make the large cold shop less miserable to be in), but can't see any better option given the lack of lease, current seasonal status (cold! no time for extensive plans!), and lack of a cadre of volunteers enthusiastic to deal with tihe issue. Will has found some energy to deal with this problem so I'll support this solution and hope it works. A plus is that the system is mobile, and could probably be re-sold if we ever needed to. |
| Shaun |
neutral (thumb pointing to the north-east) |
Although I commend Will's interest and effort, 1.) I doubt that one of these setups will make a dent in the comfort level of the shop, unless people huddle around it, 2.) refilling the tank will likely be more complicated than it currently sounds, or will fall on the same one or two volunteers, and 3.) I think that a more feasible idea, particularly if we are concerned with spending money, is to close the shop for some time after we handle the Christmas Kid's Bikes scenario. The only reason I'm not blocking this is because I'm tired of thinking about it and reviewing the same issues over and over... : ) |
| jake |
neutral |
I agree with Jessica and Shaun's comments. I'm tired of discussing it. Approx. $400 is not a huge dent in our finances either so as long as it doesn't burn CJ down, I don't see a problem. I might even benefit from it, too. The usual worries about regular up keep apply, but people should go for it if it will make them feel better about winter at Free Ride.
|
| diane |
up |
my only amendment is that if it doesn't warm the shop up more than the kerosene heaters, and if it costs more to buy propane than kerosene, then we should stop using it before spending $660 through the whole winter. thanks for all the work, will |
| Scott |
up |
It is certainly better than nothing (I am a real wuss when it comes to the cold). And not terribly expensive. And being an optimist, I have a question... If it does work fairly well, will it be the kind of thing that we can build on? I don't know much about it. Is it as simple as splitting the line and adding another heater, or does each one have to have its own tank?
Will says in response to Scott: Basically this is a one tank, one heater kind of thing. I think that adding more heat in a reasonably safe and sane way would mean duplicating the whole setup. However, at that point I'd start to get nervous about having so much propane all in one spot and chewing up a ton of floor space. This thing requires a fair amount of clearance on the front and sides between it and anything combustible. I'm optimistic that the radiant heater will be a lot more effective than hot air. However, I think to get the most benefit, we will need to reduce the number of stands and and rearrange things a fair amount so that everybody has a clear line of sight to the heater.
|
| Stuart |
neutral |
The worst that happens is we waste a few hundred dollars on a propane setup that doesn't heat will and doesn't get refilled, which, in the grand scheme, isn't all that bad. If folks want to give it a shot, they should go for it. I tend to believe this will be an effective heat source if we can get it refilled on a regular basis - and that finding that person or persons is going to be the biggest challenge in implementing this proposal. Maybe we should approve zipcar/flexcar funds for pickups if needed? Is there a propane delivery service?
Will says in response to Stuart: I volunteered above to do one tank a week for the time being, and I hesitantly speculate I would be able and willing to sustain that through the winter. For now I would use my car, but I would prefer to line up a nice trailer. Any opinions on paying me to be the propane delivery service or perhaps working out a haul-to-own deal on a shiny new trailer for me? If something along those lines were to happen, I would be far more enthusiastic about the whole thing.
|
| Matt |
neutral |
I think its great that Will made such an effort on the shops behalf. I'm not thrilled about the way we are making this decision, but it seems like a good deal of the collective is giving input which is positive. If we can anchor the dolly that would make me feel like we're not going to burn CJ to the ground. Also,I agree with Jessica about using the small offices for a smaller winter-ized free ride. |
| Andalusia |
diagonal up |
seconding jessica questions. would we be able to use this heater in an office? or is it too strong. i too like the idea of using these offices.
Will says in response to Andalusia: The radiant heater would be *very* inappropriate for one of the offices due to its clearance and ventilation requirements; I'm pretty sure the same goes for the two kerosene heaters. The proximity to lots of combustible/meltable stuff (carpet for example) would also not be good at all. An electric space heater might work.
Forgetting about heat for the moment, the main thing that occurs to me about the offices is: what about all the grease? It seems to me like we would quickly and irreversibly trash a room with carpet, halfway decent walls, etc.
|
| Morgan |
neutral |
A warm Free Ride is a Free Ride somewhere else - I don't think this will be much more then a warm-up station. Whatev's. |
| |
|
|
Jessica says: one more question- what ever happened to the idea of moving into one of the office rooms for the winter? That idea appeals to me because we could probably actually heat such a space to a comfortable level (since it would be enclosed) and we would be near all our stuff. Do we want to ask CJ about that? They might want some more rent, how would we feel about that? Can we actually use the two existing heaters or Will's proposed radiant heater in one of those rooms, or are there ventilation issues?
Will says in response to Jessica: The radiant heater would be *very* inappropriate for one of the offices due to its clearance and ventilation requirements; I'm pretty sure the same goes for the two kerosene heaters. The proximity to lots of combustible/meltable stuff (carpet for example) would also not be good at all.
Morgan says, to the above - the torpedo heater can't be used in those offices, but the other kerosene heater, the ~3 foot tall cylindrical wick-style one could. It is convection based, so it would take a while to warm up a room, though.
Comments (0)
You don't have permission to comment on this page.